Cavalorn ([info]cavalorn) wrote,

bolitics

(portmanteau of political and bollocks...)

Apparently some are pushing for an elected House of Lords.

Here, in my considered opinion, is why this would be a grievous mistake.

1. The House of Commons is an inherently evolutionary body. The House of Lords is an inherently conservative body. One exists to preserve the cultural, ethical and constitutional foundations of the British Isles. The other exists to remodel society according to the changeable desires of the population at the time. The whole POINT of the House of Lords is that it is a continuity from the past. It is an artefact. Ours is one system that actually recognises the value of artefacts.

An elected House of Lords would be nothing more than a transient slice of vox populi, a role that is already taken.

2. The facetious 'representative' argument has been dragged out again. The essence of the fallacy is as follows: the more resemblance there is between one person and another, the better qualified that person is to represent the other's interests, and the more competently they will do so. This line of thought would apparently have us believe that female barristers are more successful when they represent female clients, that union representatives argue more convincingly and with greater success when those they represent are of a similar ethnic background, and that football managers should always match the majority of team members in terms of gender and skin colouration. It is insulting in the extreme to claim that a black politician cannot adequately represent a predominantly white constituency. Yet, if we reject that proposal, it stands to reason that similar proposals cannot stand either.

The only way in which this 'representation' works is in its presumption that a person will feel better if someone who is speaking on their behalf looks like them and talks like them. No doubt for some this is true. But an issue of comfort cannot and should not be allowed to decide issues of government. Resemblance does not enure sympathy - Thatcher was a woman, after all - nor does it ensure competence.

3. Personally, I'm increasingly sceptical of the idealistic and the progressive. The crusty old edifice from the past that is seen as so very embarrassing, outdated and autocratic is the bastion of inherited freedoms and rights. Some would have us believe that the way forward is to continually tear everything up and rebuild it according to the latest Enlightened, Modern Canon of True Liberty.

There IS no magic system that will automatically make everyone more free than they were yesterday. The House of Lords is a vital reminder that there are certain ongoing principles and privileges over which we have NO CONTROL and about which we have NO CHOICE. That is ALWAYS going to be the case, and no amount of misguided socialist rhetoric is ever going to change it. Tear down the old edifice, and a new one moves into the space it used to occupy.

By having our dinosaurs where we can see them, we keep them in focus.

So, don't fall for the optimistic but fundamentally unrealistic hype that all we have to do is Democratise Everything and that will make everything better. The principle of autocracy and hereditary privilege SHOULD be involved in government (and always is), and currently it is in exactly the right position - as the wicket-keeper, not the bowler.

Of course autocracy and hereditary privilege are involved in all governments. The simple truth is when they are not involved blatantly, they are involved behind the scenes. Unless one thinks the election of two George Bushes is a coincidence, of course, or that inherited wealth does not influence politics in other countries.

When something was 'intended' to be changed a hundred years ago and still isn't, then one has to ask oneself if it is really broken in the first place. This is Britain, a unique and priceless constitutional monarchy. Other countries can have their Democracies, and the problems that attend them. We manage a very successful balance of elected and unelected authority.

Being elected doesn't make a body more or less competent; yet to listen to the advocates of an elected second chamber speak, one would think that election itself was some sort of hallowing process. Choice isn't a miracle salve that sanctifies the outcome of that choice. Having the decision to make doesn't mean always making the right decision. Yes, freedom of choice is essential for living; but it has its limits.

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  • 29 comments

[info]entheos93

August 10 2005, 19:48:53 UTC 6 years ago

It sounds like they feel under pressure to Americanize.
They should closely examine how well that is actually working in the US.

[info]cavalorn

August 10 2005, 19:49:34 UTC 6 years ago

Bang on the nail.

[info]sk4p

August 10 2005, 19:51:39 UTC 6 years ago

Speaking as an American, who already has two elected Houses to put up with ...

(a) How do you feel the present "appointed but mostly not hereditary" House of Lords compares with that of, what is it, 10 years ago which was still largely hereditary?

(b) Appointments for life peerages are still done "on the advice of" the Prime Minister, yes? Doesn't that mean the elected Commons already have a pretty big "gun" with which to control the Lords? ("Your Majesty? Tony here. Please create these 50 Labour cronies of mine as Lords forthwith.") Would it be in any sense desirable to give the Monarch more latitude in the creation of (or rejecting the creation of) new Peers?

[info]siani_hedgehog

August 10 2005, 20:07:42 UTC 6 years ago

hear, hear.

[info]mr_tom

August 10 2005, 20:21:32 UTC 6 years ago

Best argument for hereditary peers: Burford.

Rock and roll and being a bit posh all at once. What more could you ask for in a representative!

[info]irrationalrobot

August 10 2005, 20:47:56 UTC 6 years ago

Howdy (friended you after reading a couple of things off of others' friendslists)!

Query: Does the House of Lords still have much, if any, power? IIRC, a couple of years ago there was a minor stink when they tried to slow down a piece of legislation, but they failed in the attempt.

There is still a minority of people in the states (okay, a VERY tiny minority) who think we need a king in America. :)

[info]fragiletender

August 10 2005, 20:58:08 UTC 6 years ago

My Dad has spoken to both the Lords and the Commons and was infinitely more impressed with the Lords. He said that the Lords is where the actual work gets done because it's not quite as divided along kneejerk political lines (the whips have less power in the Lords, for example) and they have a less aggressive form of discussion so much more actually gets talked about. He also said they asked more intelligent questions in the Lords - actually I believe his exact words were "the House of Commons are a bunch of bloody monkeys"! And this is from a man who is liberal/left wing to the core.

I also don't see the problem with having a non-elected body. We have large numbers of non-elected bodies governing all sorts of things. As you say, no system is going to work perfectly but given the number of non-hereditary peers we now have in the Lords, it seems to me to have become less conservative (with a small 'c'). Since we can't get decent numbers of electorate out to vote for the Commons as it is, I can't see how 'democratising' the Lords is actually going to make things more democratic. I think it'll just end up with two duplicate Houses who rubberstamp each others decisions. I also think there may be a more honesty in a political body were people aren't worrying about whether they are going to be re-elected. It seems to me that at least some of the Lords are surely more free to ask bloody awkward questions than the politicians in the Commons and I am somewhat suspicious of the government's motives in trying to get rid of the Lords.

[info]cavalorn

August 10 2005, 21:38:58 UTC 6 years ago

Yeah, you and me both.

[info]ex_stephmog743

August 10 2005, 22:30:12 UTC 6 years ago

Some more points off the top of my head, while I'm grinning like a loon and yet again applauding uncle cav for having sense :)

-The HoL had its power reduced greatly by the Parliament Act of 1911 (not quite sure of that one, pedants can google if they wish, it's direct from my memory).. they now serve less as a decision-making body, more a check on the more radical policies that are attempted by the lower chamber. Rather than being able to veto a bill outright, the most they can do is delay it for two years, forcing a rethink and further debate. This is a VERY good thing, meaning that knee-jerk reactions to current affairs don't result in rash laws.

-the above state of affairs wouldn't continue if we had an elected second house, because if the second chamber were "accountable" and "democratically chosen" they would surely be afforded the ability to outright veto bills and stop them from becoming law, or what would be the point? This would result in power struggles of epic proportion, especially if the party in opposition in the commons had a majority in the second house. PITA for all involved and real issues that needed careful consideration would be turned into partisan point-scoring contests.

-continuing your point about representation.. the House of Lords has always been seen as a house that stood up for human rights long before the days of european conventions and courts. If a proposed law seemed to strangle a minority in some way, the Lords would be more likely than the Commons to look into it and show some concern. It's bugging me that I can't remember a salient example ATM, my head is clouded with tiredness and other concerns :( But what I'm saying is, people need to have some faith in the principle of noblesse oblige. People who are born to privilege are often those who are *most* concerned about making life fairer for those who aren't. Which is precisely why I was incandescent with rage when Toady managed to do away with hereditary peers, effectively turning the HoL into the planet's largest QUANGO.

[info]cavalorn

August 10 2005, 22:33:53 UTC 6 years ago

People who are born to privilege are often those who are *most* concerned about making life fairer for those who aren't.

It's literally amazing how few people understand, much less recognise, this fact.

[info]artysmokes

August 10 2005, 22:50:18 UTC 6 years ago

Mainly because it is not a fact.

Those who are *most* concerned about making life fairer for those who aren't tend to work for charities on a full-time basis. They don't sit around in the parliament bar playing cribbage, while claiming expenes from taxpayers.



[info]cavalorn

August 10 2005, 22:54:58 UTC 6 years ago

Is that really what you think Peers do?

[info]artysmokes

August 10 2005, 22:57:18 UTC 6 years ago

When they aren't falling asleep on the back benches, the old ones certainly do.

[info]cavalorn

6 years ago

Deleted comment

[info]cavalorn

6 years ago

[info]cavalorn

6 years ago

[info]artysmokes

August 10 2005, 22:55:20 UTC 6 years ago

I am totally against hereditary peers for the same reason I am against the civil list. The children of peers or royalty have done NOTHING to deserve their esteemed positions.

I am in favour of a 2nd chamber, however, for the reasons given in your first and second paragraphs. For this reason, I think political parties should be allowed to nominate a certain number of life peers at the time of each new government. The number should represent the percentage of votes cast at general elections. Over time, the peers would represent the general will of the people, while not being tied to particular parties, and there would be no truly "unelected" busybodies having an easy ride.

[info]ex_stephmog743

August 10 2005, 22:57:10 UTC 6 years ago

That's an interesting compromise. It's certainly far preferable to the current PM having a say in who gets onto the honours list every year!

[info]cavalorn

August 10 2005, 23:13:22 UTC 6 years ago

Until this guy can debate like an adult, he can fuck off. Sorry.

[info]cavalorn

August 10 2005, 22:58:05 UTC 6 years ago

The children of peers or royalty have done NOTHING to deserve their esteemed positions.

Looks like the usual tired old 'politics of envy'. You're looking at the position as a privilege rather than a responsibility - as if someone 'gets to' hold an office, rather than being laden with a duty.

[info]paulgregory

August 11 2005, 11:12:26 UTC 6 years ago

A few years back, when they removed a number of hereditary peers, a bunch of new peers *were* nominated by the main political parties to make the numbers up. I know this because as a Lib Dem member I was able to take part in a voting process for who we put in. If memory serves, across the parties there were some hereditaries that got back in through this process.

I see hereditary peerage as a form of conscription. It may be an honour to serve, but there's little choice in the matter. Some individuals may be more deserving than other individuals but that's very much subjective. I have no problem with there being a randomness to having a place in the House of Lords, and there is always the adage about it not always being a great idea to give power to people who actually desire power.

That said, representing the concerns of sectors of society is useful, and a 2nd chamber should really be something different to the 1st otherwise there's little point.

To that end, I would like to see peers nominated by charities and pressure groups with substantial memberships - just as there are Church representatives. So I'd grant peerages to the AA, the RSPCA, the NSPCC, NUS, the Scouts, Marks and Spencer shareholders etc.

[info]serpentstar

August 10 2005, 23:38:06 UTC 6 years ago

I'm in favour of dismantling the whole sorry mess, and starting out from the perspective that each person has certain inalienable rights. If they then want to choose leaders from among them, in whatever system they prefer, great; but the idea of imposing those leaders from above, as in the Lords, is only marginally less unpalatable than the idea of imposing those leaders from above but with a paper-thin veneer of elective democracy, as in the Commons.

[info]cavalorn

August 10 2005, 23:41:31 UTC 6 years ago

I'm in favour of dismantling the whole sorry mess, and starting out from the perspective that each person has certain inalienable rights.

I think you'll find that's been done!

Turn right at Portsmouth, follow your nose...

[info]serpentstar

August 10 2005, 23:51:22 UTC 6 years ago

Yeah I know!

Problem is, we sent all the extremists and nutters over there last time. I may be an extremist or nutter by UK standards, but that doesn't mean I'm as nutty or extreme as most USians (no offence intended to any nutters, extremists, or USians who may be reading).

I want to stay here, but I want a society based on (at the very least) the principles in Liber Oz. Is that too much to ask?

[info]cavalorn

August 11 2005, 00:03:59 UTC 6 years ago

The older I get, the more I see Oz and Thelemic politics in general as a mandate that requires a pre-existent social construct to feed off, prey upon and so forth. After all, a straightforward society doesn't operate out of a fortified island base. I'm no longer certain that Thelemites are/were meant to constitute a Thelemic society made up of their own.

All that 'ye are against the people', 'gather goods and store' and 'exceed the nations of the earth' stuff points far more to a predatory subculture (superculture?) than to a libertine society that is complete in itself.

'Raids are our agriculture' as the Bedouin Hawiye of Mugdi Mudug say.

[info]entheos93

August 11 2005, 02:03:16 UTC 6 years ago

That's a very large helping of food for thought.

[info]serpentstar

August 11 2005, 02:06:43 UTC 6 years ago

Oz, specifically, can certainly work like that, but I don't think it has to; so long as everyone acts as though Oz is true, it can work as a libertine society too. I think.

[info]lucybond

6 years ago

[info]prgrmr

August 11 2005, 03:59:10 UTC 6 years ago

Ya know, if the Lords back in the day were good enough to convince one Mr. Lackland to sign on the dotted on line on the Magna Carta (and you have to love the simultaneous breadth and succinctness of the introduction given on this web page), the institution of the House of Lords cannot be all bad.
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