Cavalorn ([info]cavalorn) wrote,
@ 2006-08-12 14:49:00
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ok, that's enough. sack these fucktards.
Idiots. Fucking idiots.

Foreign Secretary Margaret Beckett was equally forthright, saying people who blamed the country's foreign policy for the terrorism threat were making "the gravest possible error."

"This is part of a distorted view of the world, a distorted view of life. Let's put the blame where it belongs: with people who wantonly want to take innocent lives," she said.


Yeah, because the terrorists are just waking up in the morning and saying 'Hey! I want to take some innocent lives! For absolutely no reason! And if I record a video explaining how come what I'm doing is directly related to UK foreign policy, don't believe me! It's just a wanton act of mass murder with no message at all!'

This is not about blaming the Government for terrorism.

This is about blaming the Government for morally outrageous foreign policy decisions. Some react to that with protest, some with silent anger, some with acceptance, some with complicity, and some don't bother to take notice. Some react by blowing themselves, and others, up. But that latter reaction, indefensible as it is, does NOT mean that the policy itself is not grievously wrong.

Terrorists are committing acts of terrorism because of UK and American foreign policy. They have SAID so. REPEATEDLY. That does not mean that UK and American foreign policy causes terrorism. Nor does it mean that UK or American politicians should alter foreign policy just because the terrorists would like them to. But sweet fucking Jesus, it stands to reason that a policy that alienates, pisses off, outrages and bereaves a whole load of people should be recognised as such.

The fact of some people being so outraged that they turn terrorist does NOT lend any moral authority to the policy, and there's a strong sense from Downing Street that it does - that clinging to foreign policy in the face of 'terrorism' somehow makes that policy right.



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[info]tamaraland
2006-08-12 02:48 pm UTC (link)
Amen.

Add to that the minor detail that your average in flight duty free cart (which as far as I know is not included in the list of things taken out of the cabin because of terrorist activity) contains enough alcohol that say, a bottle of vodka, with oh, say a t-shirt in it which would, oh, maybe, be set alight. Doesn't carry enough firepower to take down a plane.

It's amazing to me that just about every country in old Europe has managed to completely ignore that the US and their Handbag are hated for what they do, not who they are. The islamic fundamentalists aren't freedom hating fascists, there are plenty of very hardcore islamic communities function in "free" lands without breeding terror. You don't see the same communities who follow Sharia law in Toronto sending people to the US to blow shit up, you just don't. Because Canada has at least a marginally morally considered foreign policy allowing others to self govern and choosing allies while refusing to make enemies without reason, not renting them with subsidies disguised as aid and wrought with conditions that make the offer both impossible to refuse and accept.

It's not us vs. them, we're all in this together.

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[info]eciklb
2006-08-13 10:24 pm UTC (link)
Actually, I flew yesterday, and they've seriously curtailed what's available duty-free onboard; pretty much just the electronics and jewelry left.

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[info]tamaraland
2006-08-14 07:15 am UTC (link)
Hmmm... so only detonators available on board?

I'm so happy these restrictions apply only to US and UK destination, origin or transit flights. I'd die if I had to face a 14 hour flight today without books or water.

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[info]eciklb
2006-08-14 12:38 pm UTC (link)
Yep, exactly.

Best of luck with your trip.

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Jon Stewart's Coverage of the Terrour Plot
[info]mark_gedak
2006-08-12 03:21 pm UTC (link)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9ZHJ6Q-pzM

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[info]ed_dirt
2006-08-12 03:50 pm UTC (link)
HEAR HEAR!!!!

WELL SAID!

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[info]wechsler
2006-08-12 04:09 pm UTC (link)
Here, and for that matter, here.

There is an astounding and prevalent line of thinking in governments, that runs along the lines of "But if we show any kind of morality in international affairs, or attempt to reconcile or give redress for our past plutocratic or imperalist foul-ups / atrocities, the Terrorists Have Already Won!!1!"

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[info]aldabra
2006-08-12 06:19 pm UTC (link)
Mmm, Thatcher all over again. We Must Not Give In To Terrorists even if we're being completely bloody inhuman at the moment. I mean, how come we have the right to go to war and kill their civilians without our civilians being endangered in any way?

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[info]jacesan
2006-08-12 06:50 pm UTC (link)
America has a foreign policy?!? I thought we were just exploiting the rest of the world as we see fit.

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[info]wechsler
2006-08-12 07:37 pm UTC (link)
It goes along the lines of "Make those parts of the world that don't realise they're ours yet, realise it".

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[info]jacesan
2006-08-12 10:28 pm UTC (link)
Shame they've caught on, eh?

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[info]echotiarra
2006-08-12 07:45 pm UTC (link)
I am not sure if this is part of it, but there tends to be a reason why they are terrorists. we seem to want to skip beyond that and want to cry out that they hate freedom. To us, the reasons may or may not make sense, but they do have them.

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[info]fross
2006-08-13 01:07 am UTC (link)
can't say i agree 100% on this.

i've always felt that blaming an act of terrorism on something like a foreign policy is trying to give it some lame justification - it's not like the terrorist act actively counters or does something to repel the policy, it just seems like wanton violence with no relation to the issue. i don't agree with some of the laws and/or policies of this nation, but i don't go blowing up things to illustrate my point (and precisely because that wouldn't illustrate my point)

of course, it doesn't mean the government can say their policy is justified because of the act, but it doesn't go the other way either.

i'd be interested in knowing what part of the policy you consider that actively alienates this specific group of people, or how the terrorist act is an effective (or even justified) reaction to foreign policy decisions, no matter how morally outrageous they may be.

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[info]cavalorn
2006-08-13 07:08 am UTC (link)
how the terrorist act is an effective (or even justified) reaction to foreign policy decisions, no matter how morally outrageous they may be.

It's neither effective nor justified, and I'm not saying it is.

What I'm saying is that it is, as you say, a reaction to foreign policy decisions.

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(Anonymous)
2006-08-13 12:27 pm UTC (link)
You do realize that the terrorists have made it clear that any and every foreign policy other than total submission is justification for attack.

They understand that if a certain government opooses them then they can do the attacks they were going to do anyway and just SAY that they are doing it because of the specific for foreign policy. They know full well that a nice chunck of the population will be gullible enough to fall for this primative propoganda.

And the capitualtion that you advocate has time and time again been used by the true evil forces of the world as a chance to catch their breath and do even greater evils. And no matter WHAT you do they WILL come along and say that it alienates, pssies of, outrages and breaves them to the point that their mass murder is justified.

And a good portion of the victim nation will blindly continue to blame their own nation and refuse to recognize the position of unending totalitarain violence until you submit completely held by true architects of evil.

After all, a terrosist would never lie about there justifications just because it served their ultimate agenda, now would they?

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[info]cavalorn
2006-08-13 12:34 pm UTC (link)
And the capitualtion that you advocate

I'm not avocating capitulation.

You can try making another response, but only if you read the post properly first.

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[info]cavalorn
2006-08-13 12:57 pm UTC (link)
Hint: this time, take in lines like

Nor does it mean that UK or American politicians should alter foreign policy just because the terrorists would like them to.

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[info]cavalorn
2006-08-13 12:46 pm UTC (link)
Actually, I'm going to waste a bit more of my time responding to this ill-spelt nonsense.

Point one: I don't advocate capitulation at all. You read like someone with a rehearsed rant who is firing it off at what he thinks is a viable target.

What I advocate is a scrupulous examination of how our foreign policy impacts on those of our citizens who are NOT blowing themselves and others up, but are STILL aggrieved by it. Just because people react to our foreign policy with acts of terrorism doesn't mean that our foreign policy is somehow ethical.

Point two: Your rhetoric is full of Bush-like drivel about 'true evil' and 'true architects of evil'. I have news for you - this isn't about good and evil. It's not fucking Hollywood. This is about politics.

Point three: You seem to believe that the terrorist agenda is primarily to do 'evil' and that any political motivation they claim to have is somehow secondary. I don't think anyone other than a rabbit-brained apocalypse believer could actually think like that. You want the world to be simple enough for you to understand in black-hat and white-hat terms. It's not. It's a complicated, bloody, horrendous place.

You sound very much like a member of a nation who's only just discovered what it's like to be on the receiving end of terrorism. In time, you'll outgrow the fairytales about 'architects of evil' and realise that the people who commit these atrocities are unfortunately just people. They aren't demons, or heathen devil-men, like it would be supremely convenient if they were. They are acting according to their interpretation of their religion. Does that make them right? FUCK no.

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[info]cavalorn
2006-08-13 01:19 pm UTC (link)
God, I can't leave this bollocks alone...

You do realize that the terrorists have made it clear that any and every foreign policy other than total submission is justification for attack.

You do realise that your belief in a faction called 'the terrorists', who you seem to think are some sort of a unified force who have a common viewpoint on this issue, completely disqualifies you from participation in any intelligent discussion of the topic?

This isn't about 'us' and 'them'. It's not about goodies and baddies.

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[info]ceriwytch
2006-08-14 09:47 am UTC (link)
Word. I can't believe Margaret Beckett said that. 'people who wantonly want to take innocent lives'. Aaaaargh. At least Blair et al have finally got behind calling for a ceasefire between Israel and Lebanon/Hezbollah ( that is, Hezbollah shooting from Lebanon at Israel, Israel fairly indiscriminately shooting at Lebanon). Yeah, finally - a lot of deaths and blown up Lebanese infrastructure later.

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[info]lizw
2006-08-14 01:09 pm UTC (link)
Couldn't agree with you more. Thanks to [info]wechsler for pointing me at this.

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