Cavalorn ([info]cavalorn) wrote,
@ 2006-10-08 11:45:00
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dear women,
I wish it to be known that I am not comfortable talking to women who do not have their tits out.

As I am a white male in a position of authority, my comfort is more important than yours. If I wish you to remove a garment so that I can feel more comfortable, then YOUR cultural mores and preferences should not be seen as a legitimate objection. Besides, my culture is the dominant one, and my culture heartily approves of bouncy norks being on display.

So, if you wish to speak to me on a personal basis, be so good as to expose your tits.

Your co-operation in this matter is appreciated.



(113 comments) - (Post a new comment)


[info]aisle23
2006-10-08 11:00 am UTC (link)
I thought you'd never ask!

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]cavalorn
2006-10-08 11:23 am UTC (link)
You were waiting for me to ask?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]aisle23, 2006-10-08 11:39 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]erkyn, 2006-10-08 02:49 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]aisle23, 2006-10-08 03:46 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]erkyn, 2006-10-08 07:21 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]aisle23, 2006-10-09 11:53 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]erkyn, 2006-10-08 10:01 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]aisle23, 2006-10-09 11:47 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]erkyn, 2006-10-09 07:01 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]serpentstar, 2006-10-08 08:14 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]aisle23, 2006-10-09 11:47 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]erkyn, 2006-10-09 07:12 pm UTC

[info]sushidog
2006-10-08 11:02 am UTC (link)
To be fair, he only asks them if they'd mind, he doesn't insist on it.
I rather wonder whether the same fuss would be ensuingif, for example, he had a hearing impairment, and found it easier to understand what people were saying if he could see their mouths.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]jfs
2006-10-08 11:04 am UTC (link)
You know, I hadn't considered that at all.

What happens when someone who relies on lip-reading to communicate meets someone whose cultural background requires them to cover their lips? No communication possible? Or employ a translator?

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]cavalorn
2006-10-08 11:17 am UTC (link)
Well, if you really want to keep your tits covered up, I suppose I could compromise. Maybe something could be worked out with thin cotton and ice cubes.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]knight_of_pan
2006-10-08 11:29 am UTC (link)
Agreed. I don't think what he's saying is unreasonable at all.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]cavalorn, 2006-10-08 11:51 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]sushidog, 2006-10-08 01:05 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cavalorn, 2006-10-08 01:14 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sushidog, 2006-10-08 01:23 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cavalorn, 2006-10-08 01:35 pm UTC

[info]dyfferent
2006-10-08 12:26 pm UTC (link)
He DOES have a hearing impairment. I have a link to this in my last journal entry:
http://www.theyworkforyou.com/search/?s=deafness&pid=10574

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]sushidog, 2006-10-08 12:37 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cavalorn, 2006-10-08 12:39 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sushidog, 2006-10-08 12:54 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cavalorn, 2006-10-08 01:15 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]girfan, 2006-10-08 01:12 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ergotia, 2006-10-08 03:47 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lis0r, 2006-10-08 06:26 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ergotia, 2006-10-08 07:48 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lis0r, 2006-10-08 07:58 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ergotia, 2006-10-09 06:37 am UTC
That's Why I Hate Clowns! - [info]theevilchemist, 2006-10-08 04:59 pm UTC

[info]jfs
2006-10-08 11:02 am UTC (link)
If tits were as expressive as faces when it comes to communication, perhaps.

I think the power relationship that exists between an MP and a constituent makes this a difficult point to raise and discuss properly, but that doesn't take away the underlying point - communicating effectively with someone whose face is mostly covered is more difficult than with someone whose face is revealed.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]cavalorn
2006-10-08 11:19 am UTC (link)
Effective communication is one thing, comfort is another. Straw chose to predicate this on comfort.

And to be honest, I've not found communicating with veiled people to be difficult at all. The eyes can express a lot. From my point of view, the appropriate thing to say is 'Please bear with me, I'm not used to holding conversations with people whose faces I can't see.'

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]artela, 2006-10-08 11:29 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]cavalorn, 2006-10-08 11:52 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]50_ft_queenie, 2006-10-08 01:57 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jfs, 2006-10-08 11:41 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]cavalorn, 2006-10-08 11:54 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]jfs, 2006-10-08 12:08 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]kest, 2006-10-08 07:46 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]apiphile, 2006-10-20 10:55 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kest, 2006-10-20 04:39 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sushidog, 2006-10-08 11:54 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]cavalorn, 2006-10-08 11:58 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]sushidog, 2006-10-08 12:12 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cavalorn, 2006-10-08 12:38 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sushidog, 2006-10-08 12:49 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cavalorn, 2006-10-08 12:59 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sushidog, 2006-10-08 01:03 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cavalorn, 2006-10-08 01:11 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sushidog, 2006-10-08 01:20 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cavalorn, 2006-10-08 01:30 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]rapier1, 2006-10-08 09:27 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sushidog, 2006-10-09 09:31 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kest, 2006-10-08 07:52 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cavalorn, 2006-10-08 12:02 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sushidog, 2006-10-08 12:14 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cavalorn, 2006-10-08 12:34 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sushidog, 2006-10-08 12:44 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cavalorn, 2006-10-08 12:58 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sushidog, 2006-10-08 01:01 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cavalorn, 2006-10-08 01:07 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ajohnymous, 2006-10-09 03:26 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]knight_of_pan, 2006-10-08 12:35 pm UTC
Enlgand has taught me Much. - [info]theevilchemist, 2006-10-08 09:40 pm UTC
Re: Enlgand has taught me Much. - [info]theevilchemist, 2006-10-08 09:54 pm UTC

[info]redcountess
2006-10-08 11:07 am UTC (link)
I'm so glad I'm not the only one who feels this way on the matter!

(Reply to this)


[info]daver2323
2006-10-08 11:07 am UTC (link)
'bouncy norks' lol!

(Reply to this)


[info]fragiletender
2006-10-08 11:44 am UTC (link)
Ha, very good. Oh wait, you weren't being snarky?

(Reply to this)


[info]arkady
2006-10-08 11:53 am UTC (link)
I don't think that's a very accurate analogy personally.

You might find [info]deathboy's post on the subject and the resulting debate to be quite interesting.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]cavalorn
2006-10-08 11:55 am UTC (link)
It's not intended to be precisely analogous, it's intended to satirise the use of 'comfort' as a lever to bring pressure upon a situation.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

yeah - [info]theevilchemist, 2006-10-08 05:08 pm UTC
Re: yeah - [info]kest, 2006-10-08 08:14 pm UTC
Re: yeah - [info]theevilchemist, 2006-10-08 09:13 pm UTC
Re: yeah - [info]kest, 2006-10-09 01:18 am UTC
Re: yeah - [info]kest, 2006-10-09 01:30 am UTC
Re: yeah - [info]the_axel, 2006-10-09 03:36 pm UTC
Re: yeah - [info]theevilchemist, 2006-10-09 04:13 am UTC

[info]jon_the_id
2006-10-08 11:58 am UTC (link)
What makes me laugh about all this is that I've been following it on the RADIO! Jack Straw and John Humphries or whoever blah-ing on for ages about how it is impossible to communicate properly without being able to see the face of who one is communcaiting with . . .

Personally, if I had to speak to Jack Straw, I'd prefer it if he covered his face up. He looks like an accident with grey plasticine in a potato-packing plant.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]erkyn
2006-10-08 02:55 pm UTC (link)
Oh the irony!

Humphries is a pompous tit.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]sarah_mum, 2006-10-08 03:38 pm UTC

[info]catvincent
2006-10-08 01:07 pm UTC (link)
Noted, agreed, linked... and my own rant on the subject given.

(Reply to this)


[info]gbsteve
2006-10-08 02:30 pm UTC (link)
Is it acceptable for a woman to wear a bikini in a mosque if she feels that it's cultural for her?

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]cavalorn
2006-10-08 02:40 pm UTC (link)
The question there is 'Acceptable to who?'

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]deathboy, 2006-10-08 03:26 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cavalorn, 2006-10-08 03:32 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]deathboy, 2006-10-08 03:34 pm UTC
Question Being - [info]theevilchemist, 2006-10-08 05:39 pm UTC

[info]erkyn
2006-10-08 02:53 pm UTC (link)
Well thank the gods someone finally said it! I don't understand why you put in a link to Jack Straw, but I wholeheartedly agree with your frank and timely statement! Now I can relax.

(Reply to this)


[info]sarah_mum
2006-10-08 03:36 pm UTC (link)
As an indication of how much I <3 you for that post, I may just get 'em out.

Once again, the intorweb is a better place for havin a Cav on it.

(Reply to this)


[info]dyfferent
2006-10-08 03:57 pm UTC (link)
I have to say I feel the same way about people in balaclavas, hoody+ballcap combos, or with bags over their heads (this happened to me in the shop one quiet friday and I sent the guy packing cos he wouldn't take the bag off his head). If you haul off and smack me I want to be able to identify you to the cops.

As an aside I think people who wear big flaming religious symbols of any kind are annoying and I automatically dislike them as holier-than-thous. I don't want to know what religion you are. If I'm not getting into some kind of close relationship with you it's too much information.

(Reply to this)


[info]rapier1
2006-10-08 04:11 pm UTC (link)
I believe that if a nation is to respect the culture and nuances of immigrants then, at the same time, the immigrants also need to respect the culture and nuances of the host nation. Some flexibility is required on the part of both to reach a viable accomodation and, eventually, integration (which doesn't predicate assimilation).

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]narnee
2006-10-09 01:09 pm UTC (link)
I wouldn't put it that way, since there's plenty of people involved in this debate who aren't immigrants -- say, "respect a culture and nuances of a minority" and "the minority also need to respect the culture and nuances of the majority." But I do agree. Integration rather than separation is a two-way street.

As an example, let's look at Jewish attire in history. Orthodox and Hasidic Jewry require women to cover themselves. (Islam is a Abrahamic religion which began after Judaism and Christianity, and as such takes aspects of its worship from both; women being covered came from Judaism.)

Covering used to occur with a garment(s) very similar to the burka. However, as Jews became more accepted as a regular part of mainstream society this became an issue with integrating into that society since it was something so obvious that set them apart, and thus after much debate, the Rabbis relaxed the rules. The head would need to be covered with a garment similar to the hijab but long sleeves that covered the wrists and long skirts which covered the ankles became acceptable because those were the garments of mainstream society. Ultimately that paved the way for the almost-full integration that exists today and mainstream society's acceptance of other Jewish garments.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]flemco
2006-10-08 04:44 pm UTC (link)
I say we move past all this bullshit and just force everyone to wear transparent, uncolored cellophane.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]catvincent
2006-10-08 07:18 pm UTC (link)
As long as it has pockets - and comes in (translucent) black - I'm with you!

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]lucybond
2006-10-08 06:40 pm UTC (link)
Hmmm. My take:

David Blunkett is a blind politician.

If I were to visit him, to speak about problems in my area, for instance, & he first insisted that he needed to touch my face, to get a better idea of who I am, I'd say that was innapropriate in a buisiness-type context.

It is a politician's job to greet & discuss stuff with people. In a work context, the customer is assumed to be the important person, & their comfort is primary. I don't see how this is anything different from serving a customer in a shop, or, perhaps, advising someone in another business context, like in a bank.

I wouldn't expect my customer to augment their appearance or behaviour on my behalf to the extent that I have to when dealing with them.

Did that make sense?

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]roaster
2006-10-09 01:41 pm UTC (link)
So you have no concern when a bunch of lads from Salford in trackies and balaclavs come into your shop? Oh let me guess... they don't even get past security.

You DO expect people to modify thier behaviour or dress when they come into your shop, you just choose which ones.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]lucybond, 2006-10-11 10:56 pm UTC

[info]sneezythesquid
2006-10-09 06:32 am UTC (link)
You perfectly nailed why this guy is a jerk. *sighs*

(Reply to this)


[info]ogadaga
2006-10-09 09:49 am UTC (link)
Dear Mr Straw,

Personally, I don't feel comfortable looking at your grotesque fizzog, and wondered if you might cover your face when I am speaking to you.

(Reply to this)


[info]roaster
2006-10-09 01:41 pm UTC (link)
True, true, very true. The mans a twat.

I'd would like to point out though my right to think that someone wearing a bag on their head for their whole lives; because of a book is a fucking idiot.

(Reply to this)


(Anonymous)
2006-10-09 03:42 pm UTC (link)
Your analogy fails on two points.

First, only a small minority of a small minority of women (namely the attractive minority of young women) have nice enough breasts that would make anyone comfortable seeing them bared. As such, your analogy might be more apt if Jack Straw had asked Muslim women to remove their veils only if they had pretty faces underneath.

Second, women with attractive breasts -- whores for attention and power that they as women generally are -- are not the ones uncomfortable with immodesty who need to be persuaded to bare their breasts by white male authority. To the contrary, it is the white male authority (aligned, of course, with the unattractive women hoping to check the power and influence of their attractive rivals) who insist upon keeping such pleasantries far away from the public eye.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]cavalorn
2006-10-09 03:44 pm UTC (link)
My 'analogy' does not 'fail' because, as explained above, this is not an analogy. It is a satire on the invocation of comfort to bring leverage to a situation.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]rapier1, 2006-10-10 03:38 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]s0b, 2006-10-10 11:47 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]rapier1, 2006-10-10 03:18 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]s0b, 2006-10-10 03:19 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]rapier1, 2006-10-12 05:49 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]meetzemonsta, 2006-10-09 08:49 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lucybond, 2006-10-11 10:57 pm UTC

(113 comments) - (Post a new comment)

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